Difference between revisions of "Archives/Shop 2.0/Heating And Cooling"

Revision as of 16:21, 25 August 2010

Lets coordinate ideas here.

To Dos

• Get A/C assessment from our A/C man from All-American Comfort Control. - Spacefelix
• Set up an appointment with the A/C man from The A/C Doctor. - CrashCartPro
• Perform the Evaporative Cooling Experiment. - Spacefelix
• Research Cheap A/C per Mike's Merchandise and BrokenTrace's and Strage's info. - Need Someone...
• Insulate building per notes. - Preauxphoto

Current Situation (verified by spacefelix on 8/25/10)

8/25/10

• Insulation - Cheapest option is to purchase [| R-4 pink foam sheet]. Will need to be double stacked on the cinderblock walls and single-stacked on the Brick and 2x4 walls and then capped with a protective layer such as cardboard or plywood. If we can get some on dumpster dives, it would help with costs. Preauxphoto mentioned
• Central A/C - CrashCartPro has contacted another A/C man from The A/C Doctor. He was referred to us by our landlord. He has some units and sizes that he would like to discuss with us. An appointment is being set up in the meanwhile.
• Evaporative Cooling - Since it has been mentioned from the A/C man on 8/20, spacefelix has been running an experiment with evporative cooling on the shop roof. An initial small test (done with 80% humidity outside at dusk and normal conditions inside the shop; lights and one 10,000 BTU A/C on for approximately one hour before test with two occupants) has revealed that if only the NE corner and Southern edge of the roof are sprayed for two minutes each, there can be a 1 degF drop in shop main room temperature 30 minutes after the spray is applied. After that, the shop temperature returns to normal levels. As this experiment was small and quick and dirty, it will need to be scaled up, the thermodynamic variables better regulated and repeated over several days to produce clearer results. But despite this, the experiment has shown what has been expected, that some degree of cooling is possible. The next experiment will determine how much this is and how effective evaporative cooling is.

That experiment will consist of a sprinkler that distributes water to the entire roof surface from the garden hose spigot. To anchor it in place, as there are no hardpoints to attach to, sandbags will be used. It will be turned by hand to provide a steady rate of water or spray in time intervals. Right now, from the initial analysis, it is predicted to use up to 10,044 gallons/mo at a rate of $20.00/mo based on TVA water rates. This is assuming that the system uses a 4.5 gal/min delivery system and is turned on for one minute at full every 5 minutes for 6 hours a day. Running at a constant rate, this would translate to be 0.9 gal/min. Gregabyte has pointed out that Harbor Freight carries cheap perforated hose that can act as a distributor. Also, he advises that we trickle rather than spray water on the roof to avoid premature evaporation and atomization. Such effects only cool the surrounding air, not the roof.

8/20/10

• Had a gentleman from All-American Comfort Control come in to assess our space for A/C. Due to our budget constraints established on 8/10/10, it will be difficult to cool the entire shop. He has suggested that we focus on the main room only with the following:
  • Uninsulated walls, 4-ton condensor in current HVAC bay and a 4-way split ductless A/C. However, it will cost much more than our established budget constraints.
  • Walls insulated to at least R-12, doors and windows insulation improved, dropped ceiling air-sealed per Preauxphoto on 8/16/10, will only need a 4-ton condensor in current HVAC bay. Cheaper than above, but still above our budget constraints. Currently, the walls are only at R-4 (cinderblock) to R-7 (Brick and 2x4 wall).
  • Alternative options would be to try and find a scratch-and-dent unit from Mike's Merchandise's suppliers (he often sources from them and resells high) or use evaporative cooling.
• From the above, and a discussion with CrashCartPro, it was decided that we need to focus on improving the shop's insulation and sealing and reassess how much A/C would be needed to cool the main room/building. Also, our A/C man has told us that he will perform an assessment on how much A/C we need and how much it will cost to buy and operate.
• Broken Trace mentioned he has a contact with Valley Cooling and Heating who could hook us up with a cheap A/C.
• Preauxphoto has mentioned he will help with insulation. Also mentioned he would like to implement the Ivy Outside Wall insulation.

8/16/10

• Estimated an initial budget of $3,000 and operating cost of $200/mo should be acceptable for us to run a central A/C. Cost will cover gear. Preauxphoto put forth that the ceiling needed to be sealed airtight, not necessarily insulated. This is to reduce stratification, hot air circulation and reduce the volume of air that we are cooling. Strages mentioned that he knows someone who works in A/C installation. He could help us out when it is time to install.

7/20/10

• COST - Take note that as of 7/10 we do not yet have the cashflow to support the monthly cost of operating A/Cs.
• Shop has seen temperatures in the Main Room of 80-90 degrees Fahrenheit in late afternoons and evenings. It is assumed that during the day and at noon this would be 90-100 degrees Fahrenheit.
• From A/C Experiment
  • Assuming 24 BTUs to cool 1 sqft., Main Room at 30' x 40' needs 28,800 BTUs and Lounge Loft at ~30' x 10' needs 7,200 BTUs. Need a total of 36,000 BTUs to cool. Assumed BTUs/sqft is based on A/C manufacture's specifications. As they are conservative, it is assumed high ceilings will not impact this estimate.
  • Currently have a floor unit (9,000 BTUs) and a window unit (10,000 BTUs) with boost fans and several floor fans about for cooling. Total of 19,000 BTUs of cooling provided. Falls short of 36,000 BTUs by 17,000 BTUs.
  • Will purchase a new 15,000 BTU window unit for Main Room. Will be installed in window nearest the NE corner of the Main Room. Will bring us up to 34,000 BTUs of cooling, 2,000 BTUs short of 36,000 BTU estimated requirement. <- In Board Vote due to Power Bill and Budget Concerns, spacefelix
    • Adding this unit will require an independent 110V line to be routed to the Main Room windows due to power requirements and to avoid tripping breakers. <- Done by Ratmandu.
• We need around 10 tons (120,000 BTUs/hr) of A/C capacity.
  • Have requested a quote and assessment on how much A/C is needed for the shop, how much insulation is required and how much the system will cost up front to buy and install and per month to operate. Free assessment will be done by Mr. David Fuller (All-American Comfort Control) on 8/20/10. Let's decide where to go from his assessment. <- spacefelix on 8/12/10
• Insulation
  • Per Ratmandu, the sloped roof is already insulated, fiberglass insulation seen on the main room's acoustic tiles is really unnecessary. Looking at the walls, it is assumed they are uninsulated as one can feel the heat/cold through them from touching the inside face.
  • There are many gaps in the doors, windows and seams throughout the shop. Have so far weatherstripped the main room window plates and doors.
  • To improve insulation and reduce heating/cooling bills, need to seal all gaps and insulate walls. Given our current rate of work assuming we are laying up standard insulation material, this could take two to three weekends to insulate walls and have all gaps sealed.

Options

• Fans
  • 24" High Velocity Floor Fan
    • I'll throw in $30 towards this. --Omegix 16:43, 20 July 2010 (CDT)
  • Place mounts and vents in the Main Room window plates to allow for box fans to be mounted.
• Add a 15,000 BTU window unit, dehumidifier
  • Currently, we do not have the money to support its operation.
• more insulation on south & west sides of building
  • sees more sunlight during the day and afternoon than the other
  • garage door is on this side
  • cheapish
  • Scott & Spacefelix thought of a English Ivy shade garden on the walls. It would be a lattice that would be offset a foot from the wall. Ivy or other leafy vines would be grown on the lattice. It would shade the walls and provide transpirative cooling in the summer. The dead vines in winter would provide thermal insulation. I see this being done with simple rope being tied to stakes on the ground and attached to temporary clips on the building's awnings. The vines would then root in the ground and climb up the ropes.
• awning over garage door
  • "over door tarps" to some
  • would shade the door
  • has the added benefit over covering the smallish patio outside the door
  • would keep rain water from coming in under the door
  • cheap
  • Could set up a PVC pipe frame to hold up a tarp and mount above the garage door using temporary clips. However, it is advised that it be stowable to protect it from high winds. --Spacefelix 17:13, 20 July 2010 (CDT)
• compressor unit for outside capable of handling 2500sqft.
  • The pipes are already run and the cooling coil is inside above the furnace.
  • expensive
• fix ceiling tiles and insulated above it
  • Scott was looking into getting the used, but still good tiles from his building coming up.
  • cheapish
  • Take caution: per above, the roof is already insulated, so I advise that the ceiling insulation may be unnecessary. --Spacefelix 17:03, 20 July 2010 (CDT)

What's worked

• tarps from the ceiling, separating the garage and smallish room off the main room
  • on any given day you can tell a very noticeable difference between one side and the other with the existing AC on.

What won't

• any form of interior evaporative cooling
  • far too humid in this state for it to work
• Rooftop Conduction\Evaporative Cooling
  • The original roof of the building was flat, the angled roof is above it. This would only serve to cool the air gap between the two roofs.
  • http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/RoofCooling.htm
  • It's always cooler at the shop after it's rained
  • Could probably be done for a few hundred
  • water is a cheap utility