Difference between revisions of "Archives/Shop 2.0/Heating And Cooling"

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== To Dos ==
 
== To Dos ==
* Ask Valley Heating and Cooling about cheap A/C units. - BrokenTrace
 
* Perform the Evaporative Cooling Experiment. - Spacefelix, Underway
 
* Insulate building per notes. - Preauxphoto & Spacefelix, Underway
 
 
* Research Cheap A/C per Mike's Merchandise and BrokenTrace's and Strage's info. - Need Someone...
 
* Research Cheap A/C per Mike's Merchandise and BrokenTrace's and Strage's info. - Need Someone...
 
* Shade the building per notes. - Need Someone...
 
* Shade the building per notes. - Need Someone...
 +
* Working With Landlord to have an A/C installed as part of property - Crashcart, Underway
 +
* Ask Valley Heating and Cooling about cheap A/C units. - BrokenTrace, Underway
 +
* Perform the Evaporative Cooling Experiment. - Spacefelix, Underway
 +
* Insulate building per notes. - Preauxphoto & Spacefelix, Underway
  
 
== Current Situation ==
 
== Current Situation ==
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* Evaporative Cooling Experiment - Brimstone & Spacefelix installed the drip hose to give the roof a slow drip wetting.  When running continuously, no temperature drop in the shop was observed.  It seems that a continuous feed does not allow for the water to stand and evaporate and causes it to simply flow off without evaporating.  This greatly reduces its cooling potential.  Spacefelix will repeat the experiment with the feed being pulsed so that the water may stand and evaporate.
 
* Evaporative Cooling Experiment - Brimstone & Spacefelix installed the drip hose to give the roof a slow drip wetting.  When running continuously, no temperature drop in the shop was observed.  It seems that a continuous feed does not allow for the water to stand and evaporate and causes it to simply flow off without evaporating.  This greatly reduces its cooling potential.  Spacefelix will repeat the experiment with the feed being pulsed so that the water may stand and evaporate.
 
9/13/10
 
9/13/10
* Central A/C - CrashCartPro on results of meeting with Tom from A/C Doctor (referred by lamdlord): Our landlord is also looking for an AC unit for the building, just last Friday he had Tom from the A/C Doctor come out to asses the current HVAC system. I was told that the system is like new and already setup to accept a 4-ton unit. (same size recommended by a previous estimate i believe <- See 8/20 note, be wary that the assessment said it could only just cool half the uninsulated main room, Spacefelix) Tom said he has a suitable unit to put up on the south wall of the shop. My understanding is that this is a deal being worked out between him and our landlord. It is not yet clear whether Mike is going to get this for us, OR simply find us a cheap offer we can opt to buy. I will try to ask Mike about this, Tactfully. (thanks to Ratmandu for actually being at the shop when Tom arrived.)  
+
* Central A/C - CrashCartPro on results of meeting with Tom from A/C Doctor (referred by landlord): Our landlord is also looking for an AC unit for the building, just last Friday he had Tom from the A/C Doctor come out to asses the current HVAC system. I was told that the system is like new and already setup to accept a 4-ton unit. (same size recommended by a previous estimate i believe <- See 8/20 note, be wary that the assessment said it could only just cool half the uninsulated main room, Spacefelix) Tom said he has a suitable unit to put up on the south wall of the shop. My understanding is that this is a deal being worked out between him and our landlord. It is not yet clear whether Mike is going to get this for us, OR simply find us a cheap offer we can opt to buy. I will try to ask Mike about this, Tactfully. (thanks to Ratmandu for actually being at the shop when Tom arrived.)  
 
8/25/10
 
8/25/10
 
* Insulation - Cheapest option is to purchase [http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Materials-Insulation-Sheathings/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xihZbaxx/R-100320340/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 R-4 pink foam sheet].  Will need to be double stacked on the cinderblock walls and single-stacked on the Brick and 2x4 walls and then capped with a protective layer such as cardboard or plywood.  If we can get some on dumpster dives, it would help with costs.  Preauxphoto said he has an idea on how to build the Ivy Wall.  It would consist of a supporting structure that would be leaned/attached to the outside wall and have a fabric substrate for the Ivy to root into and climb upon.  This fabric could be wetted to promote growth and provide evaporative cooling.
 
* Insulation - Cheapest option is to purchase [http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Materials-Insulation-Sheathings/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xihZbaxx/R-100320340/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 R-4 pink foam sheet].  Will need to be double stacked on the cinderblock walls and single-stacked on the Brick and 2x4 walls and then capped with a protective layer such as cardboard or plywood.  If we can get some on dumpster dives, it would help with costs.  Preauxphoto said he has an idea on how to build the Ivy Wall.  It would consist of a supporting structure that would be leaned/attached to the outside wall and have a fabric substrate for the Ivy to root into and climb upon.  This fabric could be wetted to promote growth and provide evaporative cooling.

Revision as of 14:57, 11 October 2010

Lets coordinate ideas here.

To Dos

  • Research Cheap A/C per Mike's Merchandise and BrokenTrace's and Strage's info. - Need Someone...
  • Shade the building per notes. - Need Someone...
  • Working With Landlord to have an A/C installed as part of property - Crashcart, Underway
  • Ask Valley Heating and Cooling about cheap A/C units. - BrokenTrace, Underway
  • Perform the Evaporative Cooling Experiment. - Spacefelix, Underway
  • Insulate building per notes. - Preauxphoto & Spacefelix, Underway

Current Situation

10/9/2010

  • Proto-Proposal For Initial Insulation - Forming a proto-proposal for insulating the main room of the shop. Trying to develop something quick, easy and cheap that we could do immediately. Looking to have member input on the proposal before putting it to board. Look at notes below under 'Augmentations' -> 'Insulation on the main room'.

10/2/2010

  • Basic Winterization Measures - Discussed with Facilities Director, currently underway by Spacefelix. See notes below under 'Basic Winterization Measures'.

9/18/2010

  • Evaporative Cooling Experiment - Brimstone & Spacefelix installed the drip hose to give the roof a slow drip wetting. When running continuously, no temperature drop in the shop was observed. It seems that a continuous feed does not allow for the water to stand and evaporate and causes it to simply flow off without evaporating. This greatly reduces its cooling potential. Spacefelix will repeat the experiment with the feed being pulsed so that the water may stand and evaporate.

9/13/10

  • Central A/C - CrashCartPro on results of meeting with Tom from A/C Doctor (referred by landlord): Our landlord is also looking for an AC unit for the building, just last Friday he had Tom from the A/C Doctor come out to asses the current HVAC system. I was told that the system is like new and already setup to accept a 4-ton unit. (same size recommended by a previous estimate i believe <- See 8/20 note, be wary that the assessment said it could only just cool half the uninsulated main room, Spacefelix) Tom said he has a suitable unit to put up on the south wall of the shop. My understanding is that this is a deal being worked out between him and our landlord. It is not yet clear whether Mike is going to get this for us, OR simply find us a cheap offer we can opt to buy. I will try to ask Mike about this, Tactfully. (thanks to Ratmandu for actually being at the shop when Tom arrived.)

8/25/10

  • Insulation - Cheapest option is to purchase R-4 pink foam sheet. Will need to be double stacked on the cinderblock walls and single-stacked on the Brick and 2x4 walls and then capped with a protective layer such as cardboard or plywood. If we can get some on dumpster dives, it would help with costs. Preauxphoto said he has an idea on how to build the Ivy Wall. It would consist of a supporting structure that would be leaned/attached to the outside wall and have a fabric substrate for the Ivy to root into and climb upon. This fabric could be wetted to promote growth and provide evaporative cooling.
  • Central A/C - CrashCartPro has contacted another A/C man from The A/C Doctor. He was referred to us by our landlord. He has some units and sizes that he would like to discuss with us. An appointment is being set up in the meanwhile.
  • Evaporative Cooling - Since it has been mentioned from the A/C man on 8/20, spacefelix has been running an experiment with evaporative cooling on the shop roof. An initial small test (done with 80% humidity outside at dusk and normal conditions inside the shop; lights and one 10,000 BTU A/C on for approximately one hour before test with two occupants) has revealed that if only the NE corner and Southern edge of the roof are sprayed for two minutes each, there can be a 1 degF drop in shop main room temperature 30 minutes after the spray is applied. After that, the shop temperature returns to normal levels. As this experiment was small and quick and dirty, it will need to be scaled up, the thermodynamic variables better regulated and repeated over several days to produce clearer results. But despite this, the experiment has shown what has been expected, that some degree of cooling is possible. The next experiment will determine how much this is and how effective evaporative cooling is. That experiment will consist of a sprinkler that distributes water to the entire roof surface from the garden hose spigot. To anchor it in place, as there are no hardpoints to attach to, sandbags will be used. It will be turned by hand to provide a steady rate of water or spray in time intervals. Right now, from the initial analysis, it is predicted to use up to 10,044 gallons/mo at a rate of $20.00/mo based on TVA water rates. This is assuming that the system uses a 4.5 gal/min delivery system and is turned on for one minute at full every 5 minutes for 6 hours a day. Running at a constant rate, this would translate to be 0.9 gal/min. Gregabyte has pointed out that Harbor Freight carries cheap perforated hose that can act as a distributor. Also, he advises that we trickle rather than spray water on the roof to avoid premature evaporation and atomization. Such effects only cool the surrounding air, not the roof.

8/20/10

  • Had a gentleman from All-American Comfort Control come in to assess our space for A/C. Due to our budget constraints established on 8/10/10, it will be difficult to cool the entire shop. He has suggested that we focus on the main room only with the following:
    • Uninsulated walls, 4-ton condensor in current HVAC bay and a 4-way split ductless A/C. However, it will cost much more than our established budget constraints.
    • Walls insulated to at least R-12, doors and windows insulation improved, dropped ceiling air-sealed per Preauxphoto on 8/16/10, will only need a 4-ton condensor in current HVAC bay. Cheaper than above, but still above our budget constraints. Currently, the walls are only at R-4 (cinderblock) to R-7 (Brick and 2x4 wall). Also recommended shading where possible.
    • Alternative options would be to try and find a scratch-and-dent unit from Mike's Merchandise's suppliers (he often sources from them and resells high) or use evaporative cooling.
  • From the above, and a discussion with CrashCartPro, it was decided that we need to focus on improving the shop's insulation and sealing and reassess how much A/C would be needed to cool the main room/building. Also, our A/C man has told us that he will perform an assessment on how much A/C we need and how much it will cost to buy and operate. <- I will caution that this will not progress very quickly unless we commit to purchasing something from the guy. - Spacefelix
  • Broken Trace mentioned he has a contact with Valley Cooling and Heating who could hook us up with a cheap A/C.
  • Preauxphoto has mentioned he will help with insulation. Also mentioned he would like to implement the Ivy Outside Wall insulation.

8/16/10

  • Estimated an initial budget of $3,000 and operating cost of $200/mo should be acceptable for us to run a central A/C. Cost will cover gear. Preauxphoto put forth that the ceiling needed to be sealed airtight, not necessarily insulated. This is to reduce stratification, hot air circulation and reduce the volume of air that we are cooling. Strages mentioned that he knows someone who works in A/C installation. He could help us out when it is time to install.

7/20/10

  • COST - Take note that as of 7/10 we do not yet have the cashflow to support the monthly cost of operating A/Cs.
  • Shop has seen temperatures in the Main Room of 80-90 degrees Fahrenheit in late afternoons and evenings. It is assumed that during the day and at noon this would be 90-100 degrees Fahrenheit.
  • From A/C Experiment
    • Assuming 24 BTUs to cool 1 sqft., Main Room at 30' x 40' needs 28,800 BTUs and Lounge Loft at ~30' x 10' needs 7,200 BTUs. Need a total of 36,000 BTUs to cool. Assumed BTUs/sqft is based on A/C manufacture's specifications. As they are conservative, it is assumed high ceilings will not impact this estimate.
    • Currently have a floor unit (9,000 BTUs) and a window unit (10,000 BTUs) with boost fans and several floor fans about for cooling. Total of 19,000 BTUs of cooling provided. Falls short of 36,000 BTUs by 17,000 BTUs.
    • Will purchase a new 15,000 BTU window unit for Main Room. Will be installed in window nearest the NE corner of the Main Room. Will bring us up to 34,000 BTUs of cooling, 2,000 BTUs short of 36,000 BTU estimated requirement. <- In Board Vote due to Power Bill and Budget Concerns, spacefelix
      • Adding this unit will require an independent 110V line to be routed to the Main Room windows due to power requirements and to avoid tripping breakers. <- Done by Ratmandu.
  • We need around 10 tons (120,000 BTUs/hr) of A/C capacity.
    • Have requested a quote and assessment on how much A/C is needed for the shop, how much insulation is required and how much the system will cost up front to buy and install and per month to operate. Free assessment will be done by Mr. David Fuller (All-American Comfort Control) on 8/20/10. Let's decide where to go from his assessment. <- spacefelix on 8/12/10
  • Insulation
    • Per Ratmandu, the sloped roof is already insulated, fiberglass insulation seen on the main room's acoustic tiles is really unnecessary. Looking at the walls, it is assumed they are uninsulated as one can feel the heat/cold through them from touching the inside face.
    • There are many gaps in the doors, windows and seams throughout the shop. Have so far weatherstripped the main room window plates and doors.
    • To improve insulation and reduce heating/cooling bills, need to seal all gaps and insulate walls. Given our current rate of work assuming we are laying up standard insulation material, this could take two to three weekends to insulate walls and have all gaps sealed.

Options

Being Researched

  • Central A/C & Heating
    • The most effective, but also the most expensive.
    • compressor unit for outside capable of handling 2500sqft.
      • The pipes are already run and the cooling coil is inside above the furnace.
      • We already have a heater in the shop. But it is expensive to run and usually ends up running continuously without much temperature rise due to the poor insulation in the shop.
      • expensive, cost can be reduced with improved building insulation.
  • Evaporative Cooling
    • Cheap, but effectiveness needs to be determined. Current research points to only a 10 degF temperature drop possible in best conditions. Examining http://weather.ruppworld.com/, it can be seen that the wet-bulb temperature of the area can be at best 10 degF below the dry-bulb temperature. May not be favorable to climate (too humid in this state for it to work) and shop operations; times of day where humidity is above 80% is predicted to be from 8pm to 6am. We are usually in the shop at those times when we are working late.
    • The original roof of the building was flat, the angled roof is above it. Although it would appear to cool the air gap between the two roofs, heat can still move between the surfaces by conduction. Therefore, cooling the roof is expected to conduct downward into the shop.
    • http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/RoofCooling.htm
    • It's always cooler at the shop after it's rained
    • Current cost of gear is estimated to be under $100.00. Cost of operations predicted to be $20.00/mo.
  • Heating By Heat Generated Inside Shop
    • Given that the shop remains at a near-constant 80-90 degF during the summer no matter what the temperature is outside, and the amount of gear we run in the shop; computers, tools, servers, etc., it may be possible to heat the shop with just the heat given off by the activity inside.
    • Insulation and activity in the shop will be key.
    • Brimstone stated it is possible to have a server bank controlled by a taskmaster that is hooked up to a thermostat. So when the shop gets cold, the servers get running and heat the shop.
  • Augmentations - Things to help whatever means we heat and cool the shop.
    • Insulation on the main room
      • As most of the shop's activity is centered on the main room, it would be in our interests to make that area as comfortable as possible.
      • Currently, building is at R-4 (cinderblock) to R-7 (Brick and 2x4 wall). We need at least R-12 per the recommendations of the A/C pro from All-American Comfort Control on 8/20/10. This means R-8 is the maximum insulation required. As it stands, we have two options; foam sheathing or canvas tapestry.
        • Foam Sheathing - This will require us to glue at least two layers of 3/4", R-4 foam sheathing to the inside walls of the main room. This will be a permanent installation and therefore require us to follow board approval procedures, building codes and take a fair amount of labor time as furniture will have to be moved to allow cladding to be laid down. Approximate cost is $2,000. The advantage is that insulation is guaranteed.
        • Canvas Tapestry - This will need pleated canvas sheets to be draped against the wall off of screw hooks installed into 2x4s ram set into the upper edge of the wall. The pleating will trap air and provide insulation. As the hangings can be removed, they will only be temporary and need approval by the Facilities Director. Installation will not require furniture to be removed as the drapes can simply be dropped in between the wall and furniture (the North whiteboard will need to be suspended from the wall on 2x4s to allow a gap for drapes). Therefore installation is comparatively quick. To allow access to the fuse box and other wall fixtures, zippered patches or holes can be installed. If more insulation is needed, more canvas can be hung to make layers. Approximate cost is $800. The disadvantage is the R-value is unknown and may not get the required R-12c value. Also, fireproofing will be required. The manufacturer's specs state the canvas material is flammable. We will need to treat the material to be fire-resistant. Per fire-resistance standards, a treated 1' x 1" strip will need to self-extinguish if ignited, strip length may not fully burn up and a piece of tissue paper underneath that collects drip burning off sample must not ignite.
    • more insulation on south & west sides of building
      • sees more sunlight during the day and afternoon than the other
      • garage door is on this side
      • cheapish
      • Scott & Spacefelix thought of a English Ivy shade garden on the walls. It would be a lattice that would be offset a foot from the wall. Ivy or other leafy vines would be grown on the lattice. It would shade the walls and provide transpirative cooling in the summer. The dead vines in winter would provide thermal insulation. I see this being done with simple rope being tied to stakes on the ground and attached to temporary clips on the building's awnings. The vines would then root in the ground and climb up the ropes. It is recommended that this be implemented in Mid-March where the last frosts occur.
    • awning over garage door
      • "over door tarps" to some
      • would shade the door
      • has the added benefit over covering the smallish patio outside the door
      • would keep rain water from coming in under the door
      • cheap
      • Could set up a PVC pipe frame to hold up a tarp and mount above the garage door using temporary clips. However, it is advised that it be stowable to protect it from high winds. --Spacefelix 17:13, 20 July 2010 (CDT)
    • Dehuminidfiers

On Standby

  • Fans
    • 24" High Velocity Floor Fan
      • I'll throw in $30 towards this. --Omegix 16:43, 20 July 2010 (CDT)
    • Place mounts and vents in the Main Room window plates to allow for box fans to be mounted.
  • Add a 15,000 BTU window unit, dehumidifier
    • Currently, we do not have the money to support its operation.

In Work

  • Basic Winterization Measures - Spacefelix discussed basic winterization measures with the Facilities Director. The following will be done:
    • Seal off the dropped ceiling of the main room
      • Scott was looking into getting the used, but still good tiles from his building coming up. <- Currently being replaced with the use of 1/2" R-3 EPS foam insulation sheathing panels.
      • cheapish, currently in the $100s.
      • Take caution: per above, the roof is already insulated, so I advise that the ceiling insulation may be unnecessary. --Spacefelix 17:03, 20 July 2010 (CDT)
      • Purpose of retiling and sealing is more to reduce air circulation and the volume of air to be cooled, insulation is not critical, but sealing is.
    • Seal and Insulate the North window plates - 2" EPS foam sheathing panels will be laid up on the inside of the window plates. They will be cladded with whiteboard to protect them and allow them to be used for brainstorming. Cutouts will allow access to the window plate handles so that they can still be removed for emergency escape. For the window with the A/C unit, the inside face of the A/C will be left open and the outside covered with foam insulation to protect it from the cold.
    • Augment the main room-garage doorway tarp - The current tarp will be layered with an additional tarp and canvas sheeting in between. Fireproofing the canvas will be needed as the manufacture's label says the material is flammable and it will be hanging within 6 feet of welding and metal work areas.
    • Removable seal on the back room entrance - The back room door will have a two-piece removable insulation plug installed made from 1" foam sheathing cladded with whiteboard so it may be used for brainstorming. Pieces of rope will be installed to act as handles so that removing them for access will be easy.

What's worked

  • tarps from the ceiling, separating the garage and smallish room off the main room
    • on any given day you can tell a very noticeable difference between one side and the other with the existing AC on.

What won't